My Ex Had Sex With My Brother. Help!
Speaker A: Welcome to Dear Prudence.
Speaker A: I’m your prudence, Janae Desmond Harris.
Speaker A: Today we’ll be discussing an interracial couples debate over african centered home decor, how to cope with homesickness for a place you don’t actually want to live, and whether it’s fair to cut off an ex.
Speaker A: Joining me today is Michael Arseneau.
Speaker A: He’s the author of I can’t date Jesus and I don’t want to die poor.
Speaker A: His brand new essay collection, I finally bought some Jordans, will be available on March twelveth.
Speaker A: Welcome, Michael.
Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B: I’m really excited to be here.
Speaker A: I really, really appreciate you coming on, and I’m dying to ask you, before we get started, for one piece of unsolicited advice, call your mom.
Speaker B: Yeah, talk about whatever.
Speaker B: I didn’t mean to start out more of it, but you know what I see sometimes?
Speaker B: People complain.
Speaker B: My mom books me about this all day, or my dad texts me about nothing like the weather and yada yada.
Speaker B: Appreciate that.
Speaker B: I know it’s a cliche, but you truly don’t know how much time you have.
Speaker B: So call your mom.
Speaker A: Oh, my God.
Speaker A: You’re the first person to get me crying off of this question.
Speaker A: I immediately got choked up.
Speaker A: That’s amazing advice.
Speaker A: Thank you for it.
Speaker A: Michael and I will dive into your questions after a short break.
Speaker A: Welcome back.
Speaker A: You’re listening to dear prudence and I’m here with Michael Arsenal.
Speaker A: Let’s get started with our first letter.
Speaker A: It’s titled design disaster.
Speaker C: My fiance and I have just moved in together and are having issues with decorating.
Speaker C: I’m white, but my fiance is black and knows some of his family’s heritage.
Speaker C: We both have decorating styles that overlap in some areas and not at all in others.
Speaker C: There’s one thing I particularly don’t like, and it’s when items look like they were crafted or handmade.
Speaker C: I prefer a more modern and sleek look for my home.
Speaker C: I’m a major homebody and have a very strong need for a comfortable space.
Speaker C: My fiancee understands that, and we agree on big things like architectural style and furniture style.
Speaker C: But the one thing we can’t agree on is his african centered decor, including things he brought back from when we were living separately.
Speaker C: He didn’t seem to have that much, but now that we’ve moved in, there’s a lot more than I realized.
Speaker C: I’m having real trouble fitting this into the house.
Speaker C: My fiance asked me what I would be comfortable with.
Speaker C: I told him I would be fine putting any african centered decor that fits into the homestyle in any room, but that I wanted the majority of it in the basement, which is primarily his space and his office.
Speaker C: He said that it’s not enough space because he wants his office to look professional, which I think is demonstrative.
Speaker C: That he understands his decor is a very specific style that is not for everybody.
Speaker C: He says that he wants more of it throughout the house.
Speaker C: I’m feeling really bad right now because I think I’m being very reasonable.
Speaker C: We have a few small things throughout the house right now, but he still has several boxes of items stored in the basement.
Speaker C: My fiance told me that he was hoping to use the majority of the items when he moved from a one bedroom apartment into a three bedroom house.
Speaker C: I feel like if these things weren’t so important to his background, I wouldn’t feel as bad.
Speaker C: But this isn’t just a difference between two design styles.
Speaker C: My fiance has a huge connection to these items.
Speaker C: I was hoping to get your input and maybe some perspective on this.
Speaker A: So, Michael, I’m pretty sure we’re talking about masks, right?
Speaker A: I’m imagining a lot of masks.
Speaker A: And I’m picturing baskets, too.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Not like couches, nothing big, just sort of accessories.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker B: My immediate thought when I read this and heard it was, you really should answer this.
Speaker B: Solve this problem as best as possible, because this is probably going to be the rest of your life.
Speaker B: Particularly the template with your children and other decisions.
Speaker B: I actually understand the idea of, like, oh, you had way more stuff than I thought you did.
Speaker B: And then there’s the comment that, well, I said you could put your things everywhere, but actually keep most of it in the basement.
Speaker B: And I found those two things in conflict.
Speaker B: Personally, I get it.
Speaker B: Everybody has specific aesthetics, and maybe there is too much.
Speaker B: But I think if he’s saying that he really would like to see more of things that speak to him sprinkled across the house, there needs to be more of an effort to make a compromise.
Speaker A: Right?
Speaker B: And maybe they both can, in that some of that stuff can possibly go to storage or be discarded.
Speaker B: But I think it doesn’t sound as if there’s as much around the house as it seems.
Speaker B: And the same can be said about the actual effort to kind of accommodate that.
Speaker B: I think there needs to be more of an effort to kind of find a middle ground, even if it’s not your personal aesthetic.
Speaker B: I feel like relations about compromise.
Speaker B: You’re talking about marriage.
Speaker B: You have cultural differences.
Speaker B: This is going to irritate in terms of how you raise your children.
Speaker B: All types of things.
Speaker B: So I just think try to compromise better now, because this will save you from a lot of headaches and potentially divorce fees in the future.
Speaker A: I completely agree.
Speaker A: On a practical level, I think there are solutions.
Speaker A: There are creative ways to combine design styles.
Speaker A: So there’s probably a way to combine sleek and modern and african.
Speaker A: Look up african modern decor on Pinterest.
Speaker A: There are some ideas there.
Speaker A: You’re saying everything looks handmade, but I’m sure some of it is metal or sleek black wood.
Speaker A: You could potentially put it all on one wall.
Speaker A: You could frame stuff.
Speaker A: I also think there may be a way to sort through, like you suggested, get rid of some stuff and keep other stuff based on what’s actually authentic, what’s attached to a special memory from travel, what’s closely tied to his specific heritage, versus what’s the stuff that every tourist who goes to any african country buys that may or may not be made in China.
Speaker A: So maybe just a little bit of investigation into what’s really special.
Speaker A: That said, there are layers here.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And the actual decor is only the very top layer.
Speaker A: Exactly like you said.
Speaker A: Michael, this is going to continue to come up.
Speaker A: I think it’s healthy that the letter writer is feeling sensitive about this because of the racial and cultural undertones.
Speaker A: I think if her partner had a bunch of sports paraphernalia, she would feel comfortable saying, you know what?
Speaker A: No, we’re not doing that.
Speaker A: This is going to continue to come up, and you have to have the framework and the tools to talk about the sensitivity around the cultural clash and the racial dynamics, not just the top layer, which is the stuff.
Speaker A: Can’t you see this coming up?
Speaker A: If they have a child and the child wants to get her hair braided, and this letter writer is going, I’ve always hated braids.
Speaker A: It’s just a thing for me.
Speaker A: I never put my hair in a french braid.
Speaker A: I don’t like a braid.
Speaker A: Okay, well, it’s not going to be about the braid.
Speaker A: It’s going to be about the significance, racially and culturally, of the hairstyle.
Speaker A: What if he wants to put the child in a predominantly black or diverse school and she’s going, well, I just hate charter schools.
Speaker A: I don’t believe in them.
Speaker A: You’re going to need to be able to dig past that and talk about his values and why he cares about this thing.
Speaker A: And your values matter, too.
Speaker A: It’s not just the black person’s values who matter, but you have to be able to discuss the actual clash that’s happening, not the superficial stuff that’s rising to the surface?
Speaker B: Yes, because I do like the letter writer’s sensitivity to understanding that there is a cultural attachment to a lot of this.
Speaker B: And so there needs to be some awareness.
Speaker B: But to your point, when you enter relationships with someone different than you, then there has to also not only be compromise, but maybe an embrace of some of those differences because you are committing yourself to this relationship.
Speaker B: So you’re going to have to open your mind just a wee bit more.
Speaker B: Otherwise I can hear the argument about where the child would go to school and no, not that dress.
Speaker B: Not this hair.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: You want to develop a practice of saying, okay, this is sensitive because there’s a race piece of this and I don’t want to step on your toes in that way.
Speaker A: But here are my preferences.
Speaker A: I think she should ask him more questions.
Speaker A: Tell me about your attachment to these items.
Speaker A: What do they mean to you?
Speaker A: How do they contribute to what you always imagined your home looking like?
Speaker A: And how sensitive are you about that?
Speaker A: What are the emotions that come up when you see these items?
Speaker A: What are the emotions that come up when you think about not seeing these items?
Speaker A: Whatever it is, it can’t be tiptoed around.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker B: And this feels a little bit of a tiptoe.
Speaker B: Well meaning.
Speaker B: But you need to get to see if this union can work.
Speaker B: It’s either beautiful Mariah Carey or it’s going to be a mess.
Speaker A: We do.
Speaker A: And yeah, at the end of the day, you want your home to be a place that’s peaceful and meaningful to both of you.
Speaker B: Right?
Speaker A: And you want your life to be a place that’s peaceful and meaningful to both of you.
Speaker A: And Michael, it’s exactly what you said in the beginning.
Speaker A: These things start to build up and that’s what you start hearing about.
Speaker A: And people start explaining their divorce.
Speaker A: She didn’t care about how I felt.
Speaker A: He was trying to walk Oliver with his stuff.
Speaker A: You can’t talk past each other.
Speaker A: It’s just some baskets and some masks.
Speaker A: I know you think it’s just about home decor, and on some level it is.
Speaker A: But it’s worth using this as practice to talk about your values.
Speaker A: Put it right on the table that there are going to be some hard things about being in an interracial relationship.
Speaker A: Talk about your fears, the kind of person you want to be, the kind of person he wants to be with.
Speaker A: That.
Speaker A: Our next question is titled homesick all the time.
Speaker D: How do I beat homesickness?
Speaker D: I have big, complicated feelings about the place I grew up in and I miss it with weird pangs.
Speaker D: At least once a week.
Speaker D: I cry about it at least once a month, and I’m 30.
Speaker D: I’ve lived in my current major metro and have friendships and work and connections here for about eight years, and I love many things about it.
Speaker D: But everywhere I’ve lived as an adult, I get homesick for the state I grew up in, which is separate from missing my family, who have mostly left to find work.
Speaker D: I grew up in a beautiful rural place with a distinctive culture and leftist political vibe that leans toward earnestness and zaniness.
Speaker D: There are cultural patterns and joy I have never found anywhere else.
Speaker D: It has basically no stable, good paying work for people my age.
Speaker D: You either scrape by in tourism or agriculture, and usually a combination of three jobs.
Speaker D: Internet access is hilariously spotty, access to medical care is shockingly bad, and the opioid epidemic and overdose deaths have rippled through the lives of nearly everyone I grew up with.
Speaker D: I experienced the worst open homophobia of my life there in 2020.
Speaker D: If you need something, you better hope you’re self reliant or have a good relationship with neighbors who can help because resources are thin, but people are creative about these problems and prioritize getting things done quietly but constantly.
Speaker D: People don’t have money, but they do have access to an interest in ideas, and there’s less of a sense than education or political theory or a class thing.
Speaker D: I’ve lived there off and on as an adult, and those were not the best times of my life, although it filled my soul in a weird way, but somehow it lives in my brain and I miss it a lot.
Speaker D: This is complicated by the fact that most people in my current city see it as a tourist destination, an idyllic place where everyone is outdoorsy, historic, cute, and quote, not real.
Speaker D: So I don’t talk about it much.
Speaker D: Or I’m forced to hear about ski trips to resorts that underpay my childhood friends, and adorable Airbnbs that made the rental market all but impossible for many of my neighbors or a bunch of wow people.
Speaker D: Actually xyz it was so cute.
Speaker D: I’ve only seen that on TV.
Speaker D: Is there a way that I can stop thinking about this so often from my stable job in a city I also love, where I have a life I wouldn’t be able to build there.
Speaker A: I was reading this going, oh my God, just say where it is.
Speaker A: It was driving me crazy not knowing where the place was.
Speaker A: I ended up asking people on Twitter what they thought and got a lot of votes for Vermont and West Virginia, few votes for Asheville, North Carolina, and an honorable mention for Lake Tahoe.
Speaker A: Even though I don’t think there’s an issue with Internet access in Lake Tahoe.
Speaker A: Anyway, it doesn’t matter.
Speaker A: The place sounds interesting and challenging.
Speaker A: My first thought when I read this, I understand missing somewhere crying about it is a.
Speaker B: I mean, I’m from Houston, so it’s a gigantic place.
Speaker B: But there to me, aspects of small town.
Speaker B: I battle with this.
Speaker B: For me, I left home to pursue a career path that I don’t think at least for what I wanted could have done from, at least not at the time.
Speaker B: It reminds me of something like, you live in the world as it is, not the one you want it to be.
Speaker B: And unfortunately, sometimes these are the things that are beyond our control.
Speaker B: In that letter writer’s case, trying to create a life, support yourself, and it’s just not comparable to what the life that they want back home.
Speaker B: I don’t think that feeling will ever go away.
Speaker B: I think for me, what I ultimately tried to do more of, and I actually wrote about in my book, is that I actually decided to take time and go home.
Speaker B: And for me to deal with what I felt uncomfortable about, of my past and to also kind of appreciate the time there and kind of find my own relationship with the city, I think it’s a feeling I don’t never go away, but there has to be maybe a way that perhaps it could be something that’s just going home more often than you normally do now, also learning to find ways to carry home with you.
Speaker B: Because for me, Houston is always home.
Speaker B: But I’ve lived so many other places, and I feel like no matter where I go, I’m a houstonian.
Speaker B: And even coming to LA, for me, leaving New York was like the happy medium between wanting to pursue certain things professionally, opportunities that I could really only do here these last few years.
Speaker B: And what I miss about Houston, the driving.
Speaker B: I think Houston, LA, a lot of ways alike, minus the Hollywood aspect with the pollution and traffic and a lot of diversity, the weather isn’t as nice.
Speaker B: That was my happy medium.
Speaker B: Maybe there’s a happy medium not in the current city, but another one the next.
Speaker B: But I just know.
Speaker B: I really do understand that because I have actually thought since my mom passed, going back home, and she was the main reason why I want to go home more.
Speaker B: So.
Speaker B: But I kind of want to go back even now.
Speaker B: But I just think kind of home is yours.
Speaker B: So I do get that.
Speaker B: But I think for me, my happy medium is going back home more often and bringing more of home with me wherever I go.
Speaker B: It can be physical things, the way I decorate to make sure I carry relationships, all these different things that just feel like I have that bit of spirit with me and when I physically need to be there to go, if I have the opportunity to.
Speaker B: I feel really bad for the letter writer because I truly understand that.
Speaker B: And you even like the life that you create yourself.
Speaker B: But it’s ultimately not home because I do think home is really special.
Speaker B: But I think it’s just like, if you can’t create the life that you want there, you need to find whatever for you is like that happy middle ground.
Speaker B: And maybe there is some other type of different resolution you can make in the years ahead, if that makes sense.
Speaker A: I thought of you when I read this letter because I just read the chapter, the essay in your book about moving to LA and kind of getting used to life there.
Speaker A: And I also know that you wrote the book during a really challenging couple of years in your life.
Speaker A: And I guess I was wondering, when things were tough for you and you were away from home, did you ever find yourself sort of over romanticizing Houston or dreaming of going home as a way to solve problems that probably geography wouldn’t actually solve?
Speaker B: I have done that and I actually come to learn over time.
Speaker B: Like, your problems follow you everywhere.
Speaker B: Unfortunately, I’ve actually been able to separate to enough extent like that past and not really associated with the city, and just kind of remember the good parts of home that I like.
Speaker B: When I saw it, I was like, oh, I get it.
Speaker B: And I think kind of the inconvenient truth is that I don’t think that pain will go away or that longing for me right now, I can’t go back home the way exactly I would want to, but I kind of leave that door open.
Speaker B: But, yeah, like I said, I just try to bring a little bit of more of home with me everywhere and especially with my mom gone.
Speaker B: For me, even as it’s very early, I’m still processing, but I’m trying to remember the parts of Houston that she took me to that I like, and those feelings that, you know, for me, I’m always probably going to cry about it now, but I would say you don’t necessarily have to always cry about not being home anymore.
Speaker B: I think that’s something you can work on, but that longing will always be there.
Speaker B: I just think you have to kind of figure out ways that you can better attend to it so that you don’t miss it so much and that you can truly enjoy that, the place that you’re in now.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: I remember reading a book about dream analysis as a teenager.
Speaker A: And the one thing I remember about it was that you’re not supposed to take your dreams literally as far as the people, the characters, and what happens.
Speaker A: It’s more about what does everyone represent?
Speaker A: And that sort of popped into my head when I read this, thinking it can’t really be all about the geography of the place, right?
Speaker A: You’ve tried to live there, and it didn’t go that well for you.
Speaker A: So I wonder if there’s some thinking you can do about what does this place represent to you?
Speaker A: What’s the feeling you once had when you were there that you want back?
Speaker A: What are the relationships that you had there that you may be missing now?
Speaker A: Who were you as a person when you were there?
Speaker A: And is there something about that that you’re yearning for right now and that you could try to recreate in a physically different space?
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I also think, like you said, bringing.
Speaker A: I love the idea of bringing the place with you, especially with technology that’s very possible.
Speaker A: So I grew up in Mill Valley, California, a cute little town outside of San Francisco, and I don’t live that far from it now, but I did join a Facebook group called Mill Valley Kids.
Speaker A: It has turned out to be mostly boomers reminiscing on growing up there and asking if their old classmates are still alive.
Speaker A: And they also had a reunion where they were really celebratory of our retired racist high school mascot.
Speaker A: So, anyway, it’s not for me exactly, but it also includes a lot of beautiful pictures of the views and the scenery and stores that used to be there and people sharing memories.
Speaker A: So I say all that to say, maybe there’s some kind of a group or community around this place or people who grew up there that you could somehow tap into.
Speaker B: I love that.
Speaker A: And, yeah, I like your idea, too, about trying to go back more often.
Speaker A: That’s a really practical and really good idea.
Speaker A: And I wonder if it would take some of the intensity down to go back and realize, okay, it’s a place.
Speaker A: It has its pros and cons.
Speaker A: It’s not totally magical.
Speaker A: I’m not a different person.
Speaker A: It’s just a place.
Speaker A: And I can be who I want to be where I live now, because.
Speaker B: I would say the homophobia part not necessarily threw me for a loop, but I usually go first with racism because racism is everywhere.
Speaker B: And even though, know, I guess the Confederacy, New York, and LA, to me, have been the most racist places I’ve ever lived, and I actually experienced homophobia more outright in New York than I did, really.
Speaker B: But those things are something generally.
Speaker B: I got the point that they meant, but you do have to go where you feel safest, ultimately.
Speaker B: And I think homophobia can truly be a gamble.
Speaker B: But, yeah, just go home more often, like what you like about it, and then appreciate certain.
Speaker B: Sometimes.
Speaker B: Unfortunately, those types of reminders, like, you know what?
Speaker B: Let me to your point earlier.
Speaker B: Don’t romanticize this place too much.
Speaker B: Exactly.
Speaker B: I’m where I’m supposed to be now.
Speaker B: I just need to figure out how to square the two.
Speaker A: You’re listening to the Dear Prudence show, and when we come back, we’ll be reading more of your letters.
Speaker A: Stay with us.
Speaker A: Welcome back to Dear Prudence.
Speaker A: I’m here with my guest, Michael Arsono, to answer your letters, and the next one is titled not a side piece.
Speaker E: I, 30 years old, am in love with my former coworker and now friend, who’s 29.
Speaker E: And this shouldn’t be a problem, but he has a girlfriend he lives with.
Speaker E: I found out earlier this summer and decided that I would leave him alone.
Speaker E: Then he tells me that he’s in love with me twice.
Speaker E: One of the times is at my birthday party.
Speaker E: I told him that as much as I like him, he needs to leave his current partner because I don’t want to be a side b****.
Speaker E: Just be clear, nothing happened beyond intense h*** erotic tension.
Speaker E: He agreed he would let me know if things changed.
Speaker E: My name’s day party is coming up, and I invited him.
Speaker E: No idea why I did it, and I don’t know why I persist in liking someone who’s dumb enough to confess loving me twice while having a partner.
Speaker E: Do I need therapy?
Speaker A: Okay, Michael, so I did not know this until I read your book, but you wrote in, I finally got some Jordans about how you used to write an advice column.
Speaker B: I did, like, a year.
Speaker A: Yeah, it was called dearly beloved.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: And after I read about that, I went and looked it up, and I actually found a piece of advice you gave to someone in a different situation, but a similar one in that they were pining for a person who was totally unavailable.
Speaker A: You said, believe me, I know what this is like.
Speaker A: But trust me when I tell you that it only ends with you continuing to suffer before ultimately being heartbroken about something you’ve never had.
Speaker A: In fact, I want you to do two things for me.
Speaker A: Get rid of this dude and turn on Mary J.
Speaker A: Blige’s the love I never had.
Speaker A: Move on and find something that’s truly yours.
Speaker A: I feel like we could copy and paste it right here.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker B: Oh, wow.
Speaker B: Because also, I’m glad that’s up, because for a while, all of those columns were gone.
Speaker B: I found one resurrection.
Speaker B: Technically not a side b****, but already an emotional side b****.
Speaker B: And actually the copy and paste.
Speaker B: Yeah, I get it.
Speaker B: But no.
Speaker B: And to be fair to the letter writer, he might actually love you.
Speaker B: He might actually mean those feelings, but he’s in a committed relationship with someone else, a woman.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: There could be a lot behind that.
Speaker B: I don’t know the labels, et cetera, but it feels a little.
Speaker B: I know that story.
Speaker B: I’m going to say that leave that situation alone.
Speaker B: I don’t know if you need therapy, but I know you need to leave that alone because literally, the longer it goes on, the more painful it will be.
Speaker B: Unless that person wants to end the relationship that they’re in now and you live with them.
Speaker B: Honestly, no.
Speaker B: Run.
Speaker B: Please run.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: I would just add that you should run because it’s not going to end well, but also because you’re 30 years old and you don’t want to waste too much time emotionally caught up with someone who is not going to be your person.
Speaker A: Because every moment, every week, every month you spend focused on this and putting all your energy on this situation is a moment that people who are actually compatible with you and actually prepared to love you could be passing you by.
Speaker A: So you really need to be in the habit of kind of clearing the decks as quickly as possible when things don’t work out to make room for what you actually do want.
Speaker B: I should have wrote you ten years ago when I was 30.
Speaker B: I was about to be 40, so I could have used that.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker B: Honestly, don’t be me, please.
Speaker B: Listen to her.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: The years fly by.
Speaker A: You got to keep things moving.
Speaker A: If you do, it sounds like you want to find a partner who you love and who loves you back.
Speaker A: The only thing I’d say different, Michael.
Speaker A: Yes.
Speaker A: I say they absolutely need therapy.
Speaker A: You said, I don’t know.
Speaker A: I say absolutely yes.
Speaker A: Not because you’re making a dumb decision here, but because almost everyone should be in therapy.
Speaker A: It can’t hurt.
Speaker A: It can only help.
Speaker A: Even if you’re making all the right choices, life is still going to be hard.
Speaker A: There are still going to be things that you can look at differently that will feel lighter and easier and more joyful if someone’s helping you think through them.
Speaker A: So if you have access to therapy, there’s absolutely no reason, if the copay is reasonable, that you’re not doing it every week or two.
Speaker B: I agree.
Speaker B: And if you can find someone that at least they don’t necessarily have to be queer, but someone who understands that as much as visibility might convince some people otherwise, it is still very difficult to be out person, which kind of creates more of these situations than there should be.
Speaker B: And there is a genuine, and there has been for several years, rising antique and trans tide.
Speaker B: And that does impact a lot of people’s choices.
Speaker B: So while that is unfortunately something you can’t control, you can control how you deal with these types of circumstances.
Speaker B: And I do think a therapist who understands those sensitivities, it just generally would be helpful.
Speaker B: That’s also something I wish I did.
Speaker B: Might have saved me some time from being the sad Mary J.
Speaker B: Blade album.
Speaker A: This is dear Prudence.
Speaker A: We need to take a break, but when we come back, more letters from you and advice from us.
Speaker A: Stay tuned.
Speaker A: I’m Janae, and you’re listening to dear Prudence.
Speaker A: Michael and I are about to tackle our last question for the day.
Speaker A: Michael, are you ready?
Speaker B: I am very ready.
Speaker B: This is fun.
Speaker A: The letter is titled trying to be understanding.
Speaker F: I’m 32 and I’ve always remained friends with my exes.
Speaker F: I broke up with Mary last year.
Speaker F: We were a couple for two years and we stayed in touch and remained friends.
Speaker F: Recently, I discovered that Mary slept with my brother Rob after we broke up.
Speaker F: I was extremely upset about this, especially when I learned it wasn’t just one time.
Speaker F: They were sleeping together for several weeks.
Speaker F: Mary said it shouldn’t matter that this happened after we were no longer a couple.
Speaker F: She wanted us to continue being friends and said it would be unfair if I cut her out of my life since I’m friends with all my other exes.
Speaker F: She also said it didn’t matter how many times she slept with Rob and said, it’s not fair that I’m not angry at my brother, only at her.
Speaker F: I actually am angry at him.
Speaker F: But I have to admit that I’m angrier at Mary.
Speaker F: Does Mary have a point?
Speaker F: I feel people should be friends with their exes and have made a point to remain in the lives of my exes as friends.
Speaker F: I think it’s immature to ghost people or cut them out of your life because a romantic relationship ended.
Speaker F: But I’ve also never been in this situation before.
Speaker F: Normally, I would talk about this conundrum with my best friend, but that’s, you guessed it, my brother Rob.
Speaker A: I ran out of time preparing for this episode and all my notes say under this is no.
Speaker A: And I guess I just meant no.
Speaker A: I mean no, you don’t have to stay friends with your exes.
Speaker A: No.
Speaker A: All this stuff about unfairness.
Speaker A: Your love life is not a case before the supreme court.
Speaker A: You don’t have to let anyone else weigh in on what’s fair, what’s just, what’s reasonable.
Speaker A: This is your life.
Speaker A: This is how you feel.
Speaker A: There aren’t rules except you trying to be a happy person.
Speaker A: Why are you listening to this input?
Speaker B: No, after I stopped being stuck on the brother aspect of it, all right, I did go back to the idea, like, you’re immature for not.
Speaker B: Okay, I am gay, man of my demo situation KING however, I do have friends that believe they’re usually friends.
Speaker B: One of my best friends in particular is, like, pretty much cool with all of his exes.
Speaker B: I think that’s great.
Speaker B: But for the most part, no, I think you.
Speaker B: Oh, my God.
Speaker B: For one, you don’t need to be friends with everyone you dated or had a relationship with.
Speaker B: That is not a prerequisite to maturity or anything.
Speaker B: A lot of conversations that relationships you just don’t necessarily need to have.
Speaker B: But also, I’m sorry, Mary is not your friend.
Speaker B: No deal with your brother, but Mary is not your friend.
Speaker A: Not at all.
Speaker B: Mary does not have a point.
Speaker B: You need to let go of this idea that you need to be friends with everyone, much less exes.
Speaker B: Run from Mary.
Speaker B: Join the dog that we just said to the other letter writers, and join them.
Speaker B: Like, run away from these situations.
Speaker B: I still cannot believe the nerve.
Speaker A: The nerve of Mary.
Speaker A: The audacity of Mary.
Speaker B: Two years, then the brother, four weeks, and then they’re mad at you for feeling away about it and you actually feel guilt about.
Speaker B: No.
Speaker A: Sometimes when I read a letter like this, I worry about the specific situation that’s being described, but also the letter writer’s willingness to be a doormat, to put other people’s feelings over their own, to not trust their own intuition, to be more concerned with, again, this arbitrary set of rules and expectations than making the decision that aligns with your feelings and could lead to a happier life for you.
Speaker A: There’s no certificate ceremony at the end of life where you get presented with an award.
Speaker A: If you’ve been really mature and stayed friends with people who did terrible things to you, that doesn’t happen.
Speaker A: Stop trying to earn your gold star in that department.
Speaker B: I’ll be in a doormat also, I’m sorry.
Speaker B: I hope you got some words for Rob.
Speaker B: Y’all need to talk about it, right?
Speaker B: Rob is your brother’s foul.
Speaker B: I’m sorry.
Speaker B: Someone needs get rid of Mary.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: I hope you have someone else to talk to besides Rob.
Speaker A: Because, yeah, Mary’s not your friend and your brother Rob is not your best friend or he can’t be for much longer.
Speaker A: You need a new best friend.
Speaker B: I’m like, I know this isn’t Mary J.
Speaker B: Blige, but this actually sounds like Mary, too.
Speaker A: Like, wow, it’s a bad situation.
Speaker A: And it’s just the kind of situation where I wish we could get 50 people to call in and echo what we’re saying because I feel the letter writer is so down a hole of self doubt and not believing that she deserves to be treated well that I want them to hear repeatedly, this is a shocking situation.
Speaker A: That’s not.
Speaker A: Don’t even question yourself.
Speaker A: Don’t even think about it.
Speaker A: Get away from both these people.
Speaker A: You’re not being mean.
Speaker B: You’re a good person at all because ghosting people isn’t the best thing in the world.
Speaker B: But also sometimes you’re never going to get closure with someone and just leave them where they are and run.
Speaker B: If you block Mary, I get it.
Speaker B: I would talk to Mary again, other than maybe to you don’t even need the apology.
Speaker B: But to accept an apology maybe and still let Mary go on their way, I’m good.
Speaker A: Don’t let Mary gaslight you.
Speaker A: You’re under no obligation to remain friends here at all whatsoever.
Speaker A: Okay, those are all the questions we have for this week.
Speaker A: It’s been fun and hopefully helpful.
Speaker A: Thank you, Michael.
Speaker B: I hope I’ve been useful.
Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
Speaker A: You’ve been very useful.
Speaker A: I feel like we got you smiling during this episode.
Speaker A: That makes me happy.
Speaker A: Follow Michael on Instagram and Twitter at Young Cynic.
Speaker A: That’s young sinick.
Speaker A: And make sure to read his hilarious and insightful book of essays.
Speaker A: I finally bought some Jordans.
Speaker A: Do you need help getting along with partners, relatives, coworkers and people in general?
Speaker A: Write to me.
Speaker A: Go to slate.com prudy.
Speaker A: That’s slate.com prud.
Speaker A: The Dear Prudence column publishes every Thursday.
Speaker B: If you’d like to hear your question answered on the podcast, we are looking for letter writers who will be comfortable recording their questions for the show.
Speaker B: You can stay anonymous.
Speaker A: Dear Prudence is produced by Sierra Spragley Ricks and me, Janae Desmond Harris, with a special thanks to Maura Curry editorial help from Paola de Verona.
Speaker A: Daisy Rosario is senior supervising producer and Alicia Montgomery is Slate’s VP of audio.
Speaker A: I’m your dear Prudence, Janae Desmond Harris.
Speaker A: Until next time, thank you so much for being a Slate plus member.
Speaker A: And since you’re a member, you get the awesome perk of a weekly segment where I’ll be answering an extra question.
Speaker A: That’s right, you get even more prudy.
Speaker A: This week I’m joined by Aubrey Gordon, who you may also know as your fat friend.
Speaker A: She cohosts the podcast maintenance phase and is the author of the New York Times bestseller you just need to lose weight and 19 other myths about fat people.
Speaker A: This letter is titled one Happy Family.
Speaker D: And I became close as adults.
Speaker D: Our relationship has been solid, mainly because I don’t pry into his life and I don’t typically judge him.
Speaker D: I do a lot for him.
Speaker D: I got him a few jobs and assisted in relocating him to a new city.
Speaker D: Up until his midlife, he was single.
Speaker D: About three years ago, he told me and our parents that he was seeing someone, and for nearly two more years we weren’t allowed to meet her or even know her name.
Speaker D: He treated this like a game while the rest of us grew very tired of it.
Speaker D: When we did eventually meet her, she turned out to be a very nice woman with a ton of baggage.
Speaker D: She has two sons, one of whom has severe developmental delays.
Speaker D: She also has an ex who apparently suffers from some severe mental health problems and frequently disappears.
Speaker D: Maybe this is why she was a mystery.
Speaker D: They recently got engaged, and my brother seems genuinely happy.
Speaker D: Here’s the problem.
Speaker D: Three years later, I don’t know this woman or her sons at all.
Speaker D: I understand that the family is complex and that her son requires 24/7 care.
Speaker D: I don’t push to see them, but we do all live in the same city and my brother works at my company.
Speaker D: I see him every day.
Speaker D: He doesn’t share much about his fiance or family, except somewhat disturbing stories about her son’s challenges running away from school, some physical violence, not his fault, but a feature of his diagnosis, and how he’s now dealing with puberty and inappropriate touching.
Speaker D: I met the son one time for about five minutes.
Speaker D: Now my brother has invited me, my young son, and our parents on vacation with the whole family.
Speaker D: My parents immediately agreed to go.
Speaker D: I initially tried to gracefully decline, but my brother pushed and I relented.
Speaker D: I really, really don’t want to.
Speaker D: I’m worried about the unpredictable behavior of a soon to be stepson around my own young son.
Speaker D: I’m also worried about his behavior around my very elderly parents.
Speaker D: I find it deeply strange that after almost three years of zero contact in the same city, I’m now expected to spend a week with this family.
Speaker D: I am experiencing a mix of emotions that have accumulated over these years, annoyance, frustration, anxiety, and some significant judgment over his life choices.
Speaker D: This is all coming to a head in my brain while my brother seems to just float around assuming we will all be one happy family on a normal vacation together.
Speaker D: Any advice for how to navigate this vacation and beyond?
Speaker A: So I think there are a few issues kind of all tangled together here.
Speaker A: One of them is the relationship you wish you could have with your brother that you don’t have.
Speaker A: The other one is the anxiety about his stepson’s challenges and behaviors and how that might play out on vacation.
Speaker A: And the third one is just not wanting to do something you don’t want to do with your PTO.
Speaker A: I think the rule I want to bring to this question is you should never do something with your time off of work that you don’t really want to do.
Speaker A: Like, it’s ridiculous for someone to pressure you to go on a vacation.
Speaker A: Adults don’t do this to each other.
Speaker A: I mean, you might drag your spouse, but you don’t get to tell your siblings and parents where and when to vacation.
Speaker G: I think that’s exactly right on its face.
Speaker G: This question is very, very simple, which is just like, it’s a vacation you don’t want to go on, so don’t go on that vacation.
Speaker G: Look at that.
Speaker G: Imagine that we solved it, but there’s, like, a lot going on sort of under the surface of that one explicit question, and I’m curious about what you make of all the stuff that’s under the surface.
Speaker A: So I think if I had the letter writer here, the real question I would try to dig into with them would be, what is the relationship you wish you had with your brother?
Speaker A: What would it look like in your ideal world?
Speaker A: How many days a week would you have lunch together at work?
Speaker A: How often would you see each other?
Speaker A: What would you know about his life that you don’t know?
Speaker A: How much time would you spend on the weekends?
Speaker A: What is it that you really want, and what do you think is standing in the way of that?
Speaker A: And is that something you could work on with your brother?
Speaker A: This relationship is obviously fractured for reasons that aren’t mentioned in this letter or maybe aren’t understood at all by the letter writer.
Speaker A: I don’t think you can get to the logistics of planning trips and what expectations should be before you get to the emotion of wanting a level of closeness that isn’t there and figuring out why it’s not there and whether it can be there.
Speaker G: I think that’s exactly right.
Speaker G: I left sort of reading this letter with this sense of just like, oh, there’s more going on here.
Speaker G: That precedes all of this that we don’t really totally know about.
Speaker G: Right.
Speaker G: I would absolutely urge this letter writer to sit with where they think that’s coming from.
Speaker G: Right.
Speaker G: Like where do you think that sense of distance is coming from?
Speaker G: My guess is this letter writer talks about having pretty active judgment of their brother and their brother’s partner and their brother’s partner’s kids.
Speaker G: My guess is that may play some kind of role in why your brother is not championed the bit to get to see you full family in tow.
Speaker G: That’s probably also true of the letterator’s discomfort around the brother’s step kids, right.
Speaker G: That there’s a lot going on there and I don’t know, man.
Speaker G: As a parent, as a stepparent, however you come to it, if someone’s not comfortable around your kids or exhibits some judgment of kids, I don’t know how much time I would be spending with that person.
Speaker G: Right.
Speaker G: So I think just being aware that you might be bringing more to this dynamic than you think.
Speaker G: Right.
Speaker G: And addressing the relationship repair as a separate track, that is going to take more and longer and harder work than the thing you need to do right now today, which is just say, no, I don’t want to go on vacation with you.
Speaker G: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I think they can even be tied together a little.
Speaker A: So I’ve thought about it and I really do have to pass on the vacation.
Speaker A: I’m just not up for it.
Speaker A: Don’t have the PTO, want to do other stuff with my free time.
Speaker A: Don’t think it sounds like a great time for me, whatever the reason is.
Speaker A: But I’m really sad to miss the opportunity to spend some time with you and get to know Kathy or whoever.
Speaker A: So I was wondering if you two could maybe come over for dinner when you get back and tell me about the trip.
Speaker A: And more broadly, I just have noticed we aren’t as close and I don’t want to miss the chance to get closer to you.
Speaker A: So I wonder if we could talk about if there’s anything that’s been keeping you from wanting to spend more time or talk to me more about your life up until this trip.
Speaker A: I don’t want to reject you in the course of rejecting this vacation.
Speaker A: I actually do want to be close.
Speaker G: Yeah.
Speaker G: The other thing.
Speaker G: Once again, I would flag like something for the letter writer to sit with here.
Speaker G: There’s a phrase in this letter.
Speaker G: She turned out to be a very nice woman with a ton of baggage.
Speaker G: She has two sons, one of whom has severe developmental delays.
Speaker G: And then some discussion about an ex with mental health issues.
Speaker G: I just want to flag that knowing people who have disabilities and mental health issues, right.
Speaker G: Doesn’t necessarily mean that someone has baggage.
Speaker G: And that seems like a really weird way to talk about whole human beings who are now semi permanent or permanent fixtures in your brother’s life and by extension yours.
Speaker G: Right?
Speaker G: So I just would flag like there is some real stuff about disability floating in an undercurrent.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker A: And also, I would say letter writer give some thought to he might be sensing very strongly from who you’ve been in the past and who you are now that you wouldn’t be willing to accept him and his family as is.
Speaker A: And that could be the reason for the distance.
Speaker A: So yeah, definitely get that squared away before you start pushing for a closer relationship, because distance, like polite distance, is better than closeness with a lot of conflict and hurt feelings.
Speaker A: Thank you again for being a slate plus member.
Speaker A: The Dear Prudence podcast would not be possible without you.
Speaker A: Until next time.
